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#1 Sat, Sep27 2008 1:16pm

protozeus
Adventurer
From: A Cave in the Woods
Registered: Fri, Sep19 2008
Posts: 243

Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

Assuming you would use a certain beloved miniature range for small-scale strategic battle games (though it is certainly not intended to do so wink ), what rule system would you recommend?

Wiping the dust of my shelves, I see ...

Fantasy Warriors (Grenadier)
Warhammer FB (3rd)
AD&D Battlesystem
Bladestorm (ICE)
Harnmaster Battle Lust

But all of those look like there is a lot of conversion work to be done.

Having successfully avoided the movies and the GW LOTR so far, I am still curious:

- What do you think of it as a pure rule set, ignoring all aesthetic aspects?
- Which other rule system could fit?

Thank you for any insight.


ménin aeíde, theá, beórnou órkeiphágou!

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#2 Sun, Sep28 2008 7:38am

Gavin
Skilled Artisan
From: Canada
Registered: Wed, Jan30 2008
Posts: 916

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

Well, I created a skirmish level battlegame ruleset for ICE called "HARP Skirmish" which sort of drifted off into development hell.

I'm half thinking of remaking it, only without the ICE D100 mechanic (and use a D6 or 3D6 one instead). I'd also tried to create one based on CODA (the Lord of the Rings RPG rules from some years back).

But I digress.

Bladestorm is ok in that you can sort of, vaguely, convert stats from MERP to it. It's not easy, though.

The GW SBG rules are pretty good for learning and playing, but hardcore players know the ins and outs real well and its kinda tricky to follow their discussions sometimes.

Battlelust I am only vaguely familiar with.

Other posters might have more info.

Gavin

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#3 Sun, Sep28 2008 11:11am

protozeus
Adventurer
From: A Cave in the Woods
Registered: Fri, Sep19 2008
Posts: 243

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

Thank you both, very good counsel!

Gavin, please keep us updated on your own skirmish rules, sounds interesting!

Estel, this sound tempting. Is the GW stuff always good vs. evil, that is, are there integrated mechanisms which need this black / white approach, or are arbitrary confrontations possible (how canonical or not they may be)? Are there house rules on the Web to fix the imbalances you mentioned?

Last edited by protozeus (Sun, Sep28 2008 11:18am)


ménin aeíde, theá, beórnou órkeiphágou!

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#4 Sun, Sep28 2008 6:38pm

Gavin
Skilled Artisan
From: Canada
Registered: Wed, Jan30 2008
Posts: 916

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

In GW's rules, they do divide good into evil, but that's generally more organisational than rule based - so they'll have one list of stats for the evil guys and one for the good guys. I don't think there are too many rules which say "effects all evil models" - there are some (I think), but there's nothing stopping you amending that to "affects all evil models on my side" if you want to have Orcs and Haradrim fight each other.

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#5 Sun, Sep28 2008 9:39pm

Kenakko
Dude of Westernesse
From: California
Registered: Fri, Feb8 2008
Posts: 171

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

Having extremely limited experience in these matters, I would tend to agree with Estel on this choice.  The 'bad company' is not wholly bad.  For the small scale skirmish scenarios, this system seems ideal, especially for a novice like myself.  I get easily lost in rule heavy systems.  I haven't seen many other gaming systems out there either.  By the way, Estel, have you maintained a 25mm base?  What about your mounted figures? To me it seems square bases are the way to go with Mithril figures and if one quibbles over a millimeter of two, then the point of the excercise is lost!  For larger battles I intend to use another product from said company, WAB, which looks like it will work with minor adaptation and once one substitutes Celts for orcs and so forth.  Good topic!

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#6 Mon, Sep29 2008 4:14am

Gavin
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From: Canada
Registered: Wed, Jan30 2008
Posts: 916

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

I use washers for bases. There's two ways of doing this.

a: just bluetac the Mithril base to the washer. This means the Mithril figure works perfectly with the GW rules as written (basically there's a small set of rules involving how much of an "area of control" each figure has, and how many miniatures can be in "base contact" with the miniature)

b: cut the mithril base off. It helps to be insane.

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#7 Mon, Sep29 2008 3:45pm

protozeus
Adventurer
From: A Cave in the Woods
Registered: Fri, Sep19 2008
Posts: 243

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

Thank you all! smile

I think I will have a deeper look at the GW game, as you recommend ...

[ ... just wanted to avoid falling into their traps again, 40K, WFRPG, FB, Epic (great game, btw) etc. And certainly avoid all those movie pictures. But if the rules are decent, hummhommmmm ...]

On another path, I am reading the ICE Bladestorm rules now, and so far I like them, though I have no playing experience, yet. Conversion from MERP should be possible, yes. Probably better for really small battles, needs more detailed book-keeping of endurance (hit points), not the simple "single wound and out" principle.


ménin aeíde, theá, beórnou órkeiphágou!

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#8 Mon, Sep29 2008 6:05pm

Gavin
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From: Canada
Registered: Wed, Jan30 2008
Posts: 916

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

Some people really dig book-keeping and the figures are this sort of pretty placeholder.

I prefer moving pretty figures around and keeping the book keeping to an absolute minimum: more movement, less stress, more fun.

Bladestorm (and War Law) use the former concept. GW's Strategy Battle Game uses the latter.

My key complaint with the SBG is that it is a GW product (some statlines only appear in supplements) and that there's very little difference between stats for different troop types - High Elves aren't a whole lot better than Uruk Hai, for example. And the core design conceit is very much inspired by the way the world works in the movies: heroes make all the difference. So heroes tend to have one set of rules for themselves, and warriors just die. You can't imagine how the men of Gondor stood against the shadow for so long with stats like that wink

Gavin

Last edited by Gavin (Mon, Sep29 2008 6:06pm)

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#9 Mon, Sep29 2008 6:07pm

ddaines
Skilled Artisan
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 1689

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

I know nothing about 'gaming, rules' etc. Protozeus, but I am not sure why you have avoided the movies.

Yes, they do have some very annoying changes and omissions (for film adaption purposes I understand in most cases) and not all of the characters may be everyone's ideal, but overall they have helped bring the books to life for a lot of people.

I personally feel that Mithril's Balrog and Shelob characters are far nearer to my visualised expectations than the film, but the scenes where the beacons are lit and the Rohirrim charge are fantastic pieces of filming and get the hairs standing on the back of my neck everytime.

I guess a reason for no Knights of Dol Amroth sad  was so that they didn't overshadow this charge of the Rohirrim.

Still, everyone to their own as they say, but PJ has at least kept to the main spirit of the books for me - he just made some needless changes as far as I'm concerned, judge it as a film adaption rather than the books themselves.

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#10 Mon, Sep29 2008 7:48pm

protozeus
Adventurer
From: A Cave in the Woods
Registered: Fri, Sep19 2008
Posts: 243

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

[ Just to reply to Master ddaines: I am sorry about mentioning the movies with a hint of negative connotation, to make this more precise: It is just my personal preference not to view them, mainly to avoid the probably powerful, moving imagery "super-"imposing on my own, rather vague and fragile visual conceptions of ME and the LOTR, something which does not happen to me with static pictures.

As movies per se, I am sure that they are milestones, and probably very impressive. Perhaps I will watch the Hobbit, I am very fond of Del Torro's works so far. smile]

Last edited by protozeus (Mon, Sep29 2008 7:49pm)


ménin aeíde, theá, beórnou órkeiphágou!

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#11 Tue, Sep30 2008 6:54am

Kenakko
Dude of Westernesse
From: California
Registered: Fri, Feb8 2008
Posts: 171

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

Hello Protozeus,  One need never apolgize for one's feelings.  I thought the movies would alter my own personal vision of LOTR (which by the way is fairly close to our own dear Mithrils), but it did not.  I think I've read the books twice since the last film and my own vision has not been displaced.  Something about the original narrative I think, which seems to illicit one's own imaginative interpretations.  Heck, I even integrate some of the better GW minis into the rank and file!  The movies stand on their own as fine interpretations, but as often is the case, the book is always better!

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#12 Sat, Oct11 2008 11:39am

protozeus
Adventurer
From: A Cave in the Woods
Registered: Fri, Sep19 2008
Posts: 243

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

Hi, thank you for the kind words to which I would wholeheartledy subscribe.

Here is a bit simplistic practical question as a follow-on. If you would like to put a Mithril miniature onto a round base (to follow skirmish rules to the letter, and also to increase stability during gaming), how would you proceed? Simply glue them onto a GW 40K base, for example? Looks a bit awkward (and ugly) to me, hmm.

Or are there other solutions anywhere, for example round bases with some sort of inner cavity where the MM base could fit?


ménin aeíde, theá, beórnou órkeiphágou!

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#13 Sat, Oct11 2008 10:15pm

Kenakko
Dude of Westernesse
From: California
Registered: Fri, Feb8 2008
Posts: 171

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

If one was to wish to put Mithril on a round base, I would not use plastic.  To me, this makes the figure top-heavy.  I have agonized over the basing of this figures and settled on square bases made by Litko.  These are wooden, but round shapes are available.  Ironically enough, I'm kind of opposite of Gavin in that I put my GW figures on washers and then on wooden bases to match the Mithril ones.  This serves the dual purposes of lending uniformity and it brings the GW figures, which are closer to 30mm up to height for integrating  them with Mithril.  It is a pain in the you-know-where;)and that with the limited number of cool figures by them, accounts for their relatively small presence.  Mithril figures, as you have no doubt observed, do not come on a standard sized base thus making the size of the base used important whether round or square.  After much consideration, I chose to use rectangular bases, 25mm x 30mm for foot, 25mmx50mm for wargs (not the GW ones, yuck!) and 30x60mm for mounted figures.  This keeps close to dimensions used in many gaming systems but also accomodates the larger scale of the Mithril figures themselves.  I hope this helps; it is a question I still ponder...!neutral

Last edited by Kenakko (Sat, Oct11 2008 10:17pm)

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#14 Sun, Oct12 2008 9:45am

protozeus
Adventurer
From: A Cave in the Woods
Registered: Fri, Sep19 2008
Posts: 243

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

Thank you, especially for pointing out Litko (http://www.litkoaero.com/), which I did not know before. So many nice options. I will also return to pondering upon this issue - for me it is not really an urgent matter, rather delightfully casual. smile Also still waiting for my GW LOTR battle rulebook to arrive from the UK.


ménin aeíde, theá, beórnou órkeiphágou!

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#15 Mon, Oct13 2008 6:46pm

Barliman
The famous Innkeeper
From: Bree
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 4066

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

Coming to this discussion somewhat belatedly, I should just mention that there are well-founded rumours that a proper set of large-army "wargaming" - rather than skirmish - rules will be coming from GW next year. I've encountered this being mentioned in so many places (usually as a result of shop staff dropping thinly disguised hints) that I think we can take it as being true. It will be interesting to see if they manage to do this sensibly!


"A worthy man, but his memory is like a lumber-room: thing wanted always buried."

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#16 Mon, Oct13 2008 8:26pm

protozeus
Adventurer
From: A Cave in the Woods
Registered: Fri, Sep19 2008
Posts: 243

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

So we still have time to extend our small warbands to armies. But this will probably take much longer on my part. But interesting news!


ménin aeíde, theá, beórnou órkeiphágou!

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#17 Tue, Oct14 2008 5:54pm

Theobald
Wisest of Ents
From: the Osning in Germany
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 5424
Website

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

Ahem ... did you say "Mithril stuff", Master Estel?

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#18 Wed, Oct15 2008 8:37am

Barliman
The famous Innkeeper
From: Bree
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 4066

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

I wish someone would - it's getting very lonely in there with so few customers.


"A worthy man, but his memory is like a lumber-room: thing wanted always buried."

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#19 Thu, May21 2009 1:48am

OriginalAragorn
Strider
From: California
Registered: Fri, Apr3 2009
Posts: 257

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

Sorry to "resurrect" this ancient thread (well, not TOO sorry).. smile

This thread, along with Ken's desire to start a thread on wargaming with Mithril miniatures, got me interested.  I have played a fair amount of LOTR SBG by Games Workshop.  And I really enjoy the game very much.  The rules aren't overly complicated, but that is the best part.  Instead of getting distracted by 250 different rules to remember, you can focus on strategy, tactics, and aesthetics.

I respectfully disagree on heroes being too powerful in this game.  In my opinion, heroes are quite mortal in SBG.  They have a limited store of special abilities and can often struggle to kill 1-2 "foot soldiers" per turn.  In most games of SBG, the beauty is that many low-level heroes (captains) and even foot troops can turn the tide of battle.

For example, if you're playing a 500-point game you may only have 30-40 troops total.  So a key stand by a couple of determined dwarves or a single lucky archer picking off an elite enemy troop can literally turn the tide of battle.  So the "little guys" really do matter.  To me, this adds character to the game.  I have even considered giving each of my foot soldiers a name and painting it on their bases.

In fact, in most games of LOTR you can't afford to take Aragorn, Boromir, Elrond, Dragons, Balrogs, Gandalf, etc - because that won't leave you enough troops to be competitive.

Also, I have found magic isn't overly-powerful in this game, which I enjoy.  It has its place, but is not too destructive.

My current 500-point Gondor force is roughly as follows:
-Faramir
-Damrod
-6 grizzled veterans of the Osgiliath battles
-26 Warriors of Minas Tirith (spears, swords, etc)
-15 Rangers of Gondor (bows, spears)

Right now, they're all GW figures.  But I would love to make a new force of combined Mithril and GW figures - which will take time.

I would highly recommend this game.  I'm hoping Ken will game with me from time to time since we live nearby!  big_smile

Now you guys understand why I'm torn between using my new Mithril mins for dioramas or wargaming!

George


And here we find you feasting and idling - and smoking! Smoking! Where did you come by the weed, you villains? - Gimli

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#20 Thu, May21 2009 4:42am

Gavin
Skilled Artisan
From: Canada
Registered: Wed, Jan30 2008
Posts: 916

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

You can do both wink

You just need to buy two!

Well, actually, its more like: lots of Mithrils are perfect for gaming (eg the Rangers of Ithilien series, the Knights of Dol Amroth series  et al) and lots are more suited towards diorama building. Some work either way.

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#21 Thu, May21 2009 12:03pm

Gildor Inglorion
Wandering Elf
From: Montpellier, France
Registered: Fri, Jan25 2008
Posts: 3750
Website

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

mmhh this "necroposting" hints me at something...
maybe a section or subsection (in the forum) for games that can USE Mithril would be a good idea don't you think?

Maybe the Court of Ardor could become larger and include this "portfolio" as well... or another section? (I fear there may be too many sections already)

But there are at least THREE applications possible for Mithril (except simple collecting, painting, displaying or super diorama building) :
- there are Wargames (with house rules as described here or on other mentionned sites)
- there is MERP RPG (the old one playing with old official material, or with converted unofficial MERP material, Gavin is rather an expert at that)
and there is a third one.... That I used to be expert at :
- Middle-Earth : The Wizards Collectible Card Games & all its later addons (this was a collectible card game, released by ICE based on the same material than MERP actually but not an RPG... it was meant to be a CCG like Magic but more rpg oriented... played with middle-earth maps, dices, and lots of cards true to the books (+ the inventions from ICE)  I personnaly own the whole collection of those cards though I don't play it a lot recently, and I used to impersonate my players on the map with Mithril figurines indeed, arranged in companies... Since all companies were formed of personnalities and all those personnalities exist (or at least 95%) in Mithril... anyway...(if you want some info : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-ear … _Card_Game)

Well maybe such a category would be cool?


"Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill." (Gildor Inglorion, LOTR1)

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#22 Thu, May21 2009 2:03pm

Gildor Inglorion
Wandering Elf
From: Montpellier, France
Registered: Fri, Jan25 2008
Posts: 3750
Website

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

well sure Estel but isn't MERP actually a game originally? smile that's why I was suggesting it


"Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill." (Gildor Inglorion, LOTR1)

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#23 Thu, May21 2009 2:27pm

protozeus
Adventurer
From: A Cave in the Woods
Registered: Fri, Sep19 2008
Posts: 243

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

Very nice idea, and nice to meet another ex-METW player (also still own quite a collection, wonderful game! (Where again was the place to buy more time for the ME things in life?)) ... smile


ménin aeíde, theá, beórnou órkeiphágou!

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#24 Thu, May21 2009 6:20pm

Gildor Inglorion
Wandering Elf
From: Montpellier, France
Registered: Fri, Jan25 2008
Posts: 3750
Website

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

(Actually each year I still receive the newsletters for the Lure of MECCG international events and all news concerning this community maintained by Wolfgang Penetsdorfer. Years ago he referenced me as one of the potential "french" link for this community but I could not find any other french players to organize events so mainly all the MECCG events take place in Germany... I think there is no single card that I miss in the collection (except thos created by fans which are unofficial)


"Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill." (Gildor Inglorion, LOTR1)

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#25 Fri, May22 2009 12:10am

Gavin
Skilled Artisan
From: Canada
Registered: Wed, Jan30 2008
Posts: 916

Re: Battle Game Rules - What would you recommend?

I'd be very much interested in helping out with such a section!

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