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Looking very impressive, Master Caster. What are you making the "howdah/castle" from? And come to that, what company's elephant are you using?
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Nice Holger, I might eventually get my Mumak conversions completed one day, but as it's only been about 15 years there's no rush!!!!
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Barliman wrote:
Looking very impressive, Master Caster. What are you making the "howdah/castle" from? And come to that, what company's elephant are you using?
Don't know if they're still available but I got three different types of elephant toys from that chain of shops that used to cater mainly for younger children, but damned if I can think of the name.
They were in my opinion, big enough to be a Mumak, but not ridiculously oversized like the movie beasts (I didn't mind the design, just the size!).
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ddaines wrote:
Barliman wrote:
Looking very impressive, Master Caster. What are you making the "howdah/castle" from? And come to that, what company's elephant are you using?
Don't know if they're still available but I got three different types of elephant toys from that chain of shops that used to cater mainly for younger children, but damned if I can think of the name.
They were in my opinion, big enough to be a Mumak, but not ridiculously oversized like the movie beasts (I didn't mind the design, just the size!).
Early Learning Centre Barli, not sure if they still exist, but they did some nice toy elephants
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The elephant is from the company Schleich! The main part of the "howdah/castle" is from a old GW warwagon plus additional other bits.
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That is a wonderful idea, Master Caster. I wonder what it will look like once it is finished. - Maybe you found a solution for the size. I agree that the GW-Mumak is far too big (though it comes close to Tolkien's desciption) and that Mithril baby-Mumak is too small.
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ddaines wrote:
Don't know if they're still available but I got three different types of elephant toys from that chain of shops that used to cater mainly for younger children, but damned if I can think of the name.
They were in my opinion, big enough to be a Mumak, but not ridiculously oversized like the movie beasts (I didn't mind the design, just the size!).
Knowing now that they're by Schleich (thanks, Master Holger!), I've Just found they're still widely available, most easily on Amazon and eBay.
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Very nice concept Holger... I hope soon we'll see final result of this project ! This elephant is much better than the mithril ones...
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Theobald wrote:
I agree that the GW-Mumak is far too big (though it comes close to Tolkien's desciption) and that Mithril baby-Mumak is too small.
I don't think that the GW Mûmak is far too big. The movie Mûmaks were indeed grossly oversized (more like AT-AT's disguised as elephants). The GW version is large for sure, but Tolkien describes the Mûmaks as being much bigger than their contemporary relatives. When Sam sees them for the first time, Tolkien notes that "his [the Mûmak's] kin that live still in latter days are but memories of his girth and majesty".
An African Elephant (Loxodonta africana) male (the largest living elephant species) can reach a height of 4m. In 32mm scale (assuming a 1.8m height for the 32mm), this would translate into 71mm height. The Schleich L. africana male I have (there seems to be several variants; see below) is about 92mm high. This would translate to ca. 5.2m height.
The GW Mûmak is about 130mm high, translating into 7.3m when assuming 32mm scale.
The term "but memories of his girth and majesty" is of course not very precise and thus open to interpretation. Personally, I can't see a 4m vs. 5.2m as "but a memory", whereas 4m vs. 7.3m I see indeed as a "pale memory" (my words). Thus I deem the GW version quite well-suited (perhaps a bit too large, but not overly). In addition I like the slight variation in design (but still an elephant), which strengthens the appearance of being a now extinct and differently looking "mega-elephant".
Cheers
Tolwen
BTW: Holger, is this Schleich elephant a recent purchase? I ask since I own several ones I bought two or three years ago (adult male and female african & indian elephant each plus the corresponding youngsters), but they have other poses. I'll have to check my local vendor
Last edited by Tolwen (Sat, Nov26 2016 4:57pm)
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Well, dear Tolwen, there's some space for interpreting Tolkien's few characteristics given for those Mûmakil. That's why I added some words in brackets in my last entry. According to Tolkien the GW Mûmak (and those in the movies) would even still be a bit too small (!) as they don't offer enough space for the number of a fighting crew as imagined by Tolkien, if I remember well.
Still I think that the Mithril elephant is ridiculous, though its weight definitely tops that of the GW-Mûmak.
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Like Balrog wings, the mumak debate could probably last for ages and end up just as inconclsuive. Either way, my own thinking on the subject is akin to Master Tolwen's (which is why I gotr a friend to obtain three GW mumaks for me at virtually zero cost while he was working there years ago; I've assemble one - but not finished painting it - and it looks right alongside (or trampling...) 28mm–32mm figures, and it does in my mind tally with the sort of size that I always imagined JRRT imagined when he wrote.) They take up a colossal amount of space on a wargame table, though, and I've recently idly wondered whether a smaller compromise might fit the bill. The Schleich ones are certianly very attractive models, and come in assorted poses too.
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Theobald wrote:
Still I think that the Mithril elephant is ridiculous, though its weight definitely tops that of the GW-Mûmak.
We definitely can agree on that! The Mithril elephant essentially is a real-world indian elephant (Elephas maximus) both in features and size. I am aware that a proper-sized Mûmak probably was (and is) beyond the possibilities of a metal cast. And apart from the size issue, its pose is - at least for me - not very inspiring and extremely static. Overall a good piece to have as a reference for the collector, but also nothing more IMHO. Both the Schleich toy and the GW plastic Mûmak one are much better in all aspects of a model for tabletop gaming and dioramas.
I wonder whether I'd have been better not to make it (the Mithril Mûmak) than have such a "Mûmak"...
Cheers
Tolwen
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Master Tolwen, it was a recent buy! I do have a older Version of it aswell, but this later version looks a lot better!
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Just search for Schleich elephants on the Internet and you'll find they've produced several different versions, and I get the impression that several of those are still available.
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Beautiful work master Holger, I must say that I do not own the mûmak reference because I find it horrible, both in sculpt and pose. (with all my respect to other companions that own the reference)
Should mithril cast something at least similar to what you did I would bought it almost straightforward because of the textures and the pose are infinitely better.
Talking about the size I imagined them a little bit bigger than the one pictured by Holger, maybe a 10-20% more. But I find this one perfectly acceptable (it could be a young adult mûmak who still has not reached it's full size)
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That is a great Mumak project! I had selected those same elephants for my Mumaks about 3 years ago. The first Howdah I built out of wood and did not like it at all. I did buy 3 of the Mithril Mumaks, just to use the crew figures. I also bought additional corsair archers and spearmen to increase the size of the crew.
I would like to find something like you have for the howdah; building my own is what has delayed the project so much.
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Thank you Masters!
I was contemplating to increase the size of the Howdah to make more fighters fit! At the moment you might fit 3 into the Howdah.... without bases.
What do you guys think? What would be a good improvement?
Thanks for your ideas!
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I was going for a crew size of 9 including driver; three facing left and right and 2 on a raised platform in the center. I have not built one yet that looks good.
Have you thought about adding any armor to the Mumak itself?
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A 9 man crew Hmmm.. OK, that's alright.
Yes Master shadyt, I had the intension to put armor on the Mumak.
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Holger, your mumak project looks great so far. Really promising images !
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Thanks! I guess I have to cast a few more bits so I can expand in width and height.....
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I am looking forward to seeing the larger version. I also was thinking about adding extra arrow quivers and bundles of javelins. Also some drinking water or other supplies. Is providing some shade for the crew too much luxury?
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Sounds like a interesting concept....
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hsf62 wrote:
A 9 man crew Hmmm.. OK, that's alright.
Just for reference: In real-world history, the crew of an Indian War-Elephant in the wars of Alexander's successors normally numbered 2 to 4. I'm not sure whether the Mahut is counted in here - I'll have to check. Anyway, a bigger crew is justified in any case. I'd say 9 would be good for the GW mûmak, but I'd have to see an image to judge better.
I measured Mithril's mûmak. Given the scale outlined above, it is about 3.3m high, which is about the maximum size for an Indian Elephant.
As a side-note, the total height of the GW mûmak matches quite good with those of one of the largest (perhaps the largest) land animal(s) ever living on earth: Brachiosaurus. Even though they are definitely very different in most aspects, the height (and general proportions and mass) of the main body shows that such a creature is possible even in the real world and not only by "magic". This latter point is IMO an important one for Middle-earth to strengthen the suspension of disbelief.
EDIT: I checked, and it seems that a crew of up to 5 (1 driver, 4 fighters) was common for Indian war elephants in the time of the successors.
Cheers
Tolwen
Last edited by Tolwen (Wed, Dec28 2016 7:13pm)
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Schleich makes some great toy sculpts. That Mumak will be fantastic! I wish I had that idea.
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