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Gildor Inglorion · Mon, Aug30 2010 10:09pm

mmhh I'm here, what can I do for master innkeeper? well indeed the Man has the final decision in case of a tie...
fact is I don't know what he would prefer... the Variags of Khand are related to easterlings though different, they are rather southrons...
Mauhur is an orc...

honestly I don't know, but I'm sure he'll prefer originality over repetition... no matter his choice...

Actually I think he would prefer Mauhur... not only because he is a "character" but also because he can stand "all by himself" while a "foot archer" tends to mean it would be a part of a whole that will never happen at least for a while...

building single references of what should constitutes a full army range has always been odd for me...Either you suggest a full Khand range with at least 10 figurines (like dol amroth, lossarnach, corsairs of umbar etc...) either you suggest a figurine that could stand alone as well as be put as an officer of an army or be used in dioramas...
I have nothing against officers as GF figurines, but a simple infantry character without his fellow mates would feel like an "orphan" in the mithril range... that would be odd don't you think?

Gavin · Tue, Aug31 2010 12:23am

If the Variag archer was chosen, then he would be used as a captain for any future Easterling armies.

Or use him as an on-foot companion to the old Variag.

Beyond that, though? No idea.

Thingol · Tue, Aug31 2010 5:51am

So if the casting vote does not decide.... it always could be arranged to release both figures but one month we could make a break and abstain voting. That will both guys made satisfied. And just simply make vignette where Mauhur speaks with variag archer and give him instructions for next attack.... or they just chatting about tee time... before next battle.

Turambar · Tue, Aug31 2010 7:46am

So this discussion came to an an end, didn´t it. Let´s wait and see.

Time for an interruption of a special kind:
I would like to give Mistress Wendy an invitation because of her kindness! Yes I will! cool
Master Barliman, do you have this famous italian Bitter here in these outskirts . . .
If so, I am sure she will like it! Chin!

Theobald · Tue, Aug31 2010 12:59pm

Huoooommmm ... right then ... the answer is quite simple ... huom ... let me try to explain ...
Master Barliman has a brilliant memory ... there once was a similar situation with a draw in the end ... rhuoommm ... a bit later some people were surprised to witness that after a few days the number of the totals of votes was slightly raised (after the voting ended) and because of that there was a winner in the end ... rhuoommmhuom ... "how does it come?" people asked ... huom ... the answer then was given by Master O'Brian, he pointed out that in a situation like that it is Master Tubb having the "final say" ... huooommmm ... which to me is alright ... huom
No, there won't ever be two figures being released because of a draw in the voting for one month ... huom ... I'm sure about that ... hooooooommmm ... so I'm sure there will be a winner for this month soon .... huom ... that's what I know of and what I remember .... hom

Barliman · Tue, Aug31 2010 1:57pm

As erudite as ever, Master Tree.

Theobald · Tue, Aug31 2010 4:28pm

Huooommm ... well, Master Barliman, .... ahem ... I'm not ... huoommm
... anyway, Master O'Brian just stated that there are certain "rules" that will be kept ... hom ... but that also means that the decision will be the one Master Tubb takes ... rhuoommmmmhom ... so it's up to that poor lad ... hoommm ... I don't envy him for having to decide about this matter .
..but I'm sure there will be no-one around here to doubt or discuss that decision .... right?

Gildor Inglorion · Tue, Aug31 2010 4:43pm

well, Grond philisophy debate on the non-manichean way of orcs who could be good is quite irrelevant I think...

Orcs are not a race by themselves, since their creation they have not been free to have their own will. these were artificially created beasts made out of elves

as for the decision, I say the same as Master Theobald. Chris will decide... there won't be any other alternative ... as such things happened in the past and there were problems of fairness... involved

Barliman · Tue, Aug31 2010 4:55pm

Actually, in his closing years JRRT's thoughts were leading him more and more to the 'belief' that Orcs were actually corrupted Men rather than Elves, but of course, it was all a bit too late by that time, since his legendarium required orcs to exist long before the first Men had even been born, LOTR had long since been published, and his Fisrt Age material was in what might be called a bugger's muddle that would become even more muddled if he'd lived long enough to start rewriting it (yet again)... This is all covered in one of the HOME volumes, though for the life of me I can't remember which (memory like a lumber room, etc).

Gavin · Tue, Aug31 2010 5:24pm

I think the easiest thing to do is split the difference.

Orcs are corrupted Elves - and Men.

There's an idea/ possibility that Orcs are immortal, like Elves, unless they are killed. This is probably false. They could well be long lived (Check out Azog and Bolg's family tree). Which would make a bit more sense if they were mortal, but somehow tied to ancient bloodlines.

Also, Morgoth's armies of corrupted Elves would have started getting a bit thin once the Noldo showed up. Grab Men too, which have the numbers and brutishness Morgoth needed and voila, an army.

Theobald · Tue, Aug31 2010 5:59pm

Huoommmm ... some parts of the discussion that is taking place here at the moment reminds me of topics having been discussed several times already some time ago ... huom ...
Hoomm ... I think it's time to suggest that "female Orc" on that board again ... rhuoommm

Until then, let me just stand aside with a bowl of clear-clean-non-sparkeling-honey-coloured water from Master Barliman's "Ent-special", topped up by the leak in the roof ... huommm

Barliman · Tue, Aug31 2010 6:26pm

Surely Azog and Bolg would have had a family cave, not a family tree?

Kenakko · Wed, Sep1 2010 1:17am

There was an interesting thread on TMP recently which discussed the whole origin of orcs and how do they reproduce. JRRT had not really worked this out completely and some of his writings related to this do exist, but are never to be published. For an overly simple summation, I would say that the scene under Isengard in the Jackson films was closer to Tolkien's idea and not just an invention of PJ (who researched original works). And Tolkien himself struggled with the origins and implications right up to his death. One thing is sure though, no female orcs are ever mentioned and there is a reason for this...

Gildor Inglorion · Wed, Sep1 2010 7:02am

female orcs are hinted at in some letters.... though not admitted to exist, but mentionned as a "possibility" , without further detail

Barliman · Wed, Sep1 2010 7:20am

Which brings us back to the old chestnut of Azog being the father of Bolg, which would be difficult without the, er, participation of an Orc female. And as I've said before (the Tree is right in observing that this ground has all been covered in earlier discussions), JRRT states in his assorted jottings that Orcs procreated in the same way as all the other 'peoples' of Middle-earth. There was no Biblical fashioning from clay, as the movie version would have us believe.

ESTEL · Wed, Sep1 2010 7:31am

this debate seems to be of some interest as it comes up from dark corners again and again.

i think we all have to accept, that tolkien was never as precise as some wish and this is exactly, what makes his world so interesting and fascinating. tolkien wrote his stories as if true and long forgotten history was told and no one ever knows what exactly happened. that is also the case for the reproduction of orcs. to bring in much more confusion, some passages of his texts are contradictory, some just confusing, e.g. the mentioning of more than just orcs, like goblins hobgoblins and so on. nobody really knows what they were and nobody will really know where they come from.

what could be stated as relatively sure is, that orcs must have 'liked' females of other races as they took them as prisoners (at least in the first age) but that might be because they are beautifull and orcs hate all beauty.

not to know everything is what makes things magical and fascinating. think of movies, where not everything is explained in full detail, it makes them more fascinating and marvellous than in the (typical American style) movies, where everything is explained like in soap operas. what did you like more: Ridley Scotts Alien movie or a soap of any kind?? why was the x-files series so powerfull? because the audience did nor get more than very few hints. when was the mystic over? when more and more was explained- the series became boring.

think of all the mysterious scenes in lord of the rings explained?? Just think of a complete explanation of the paths of the dead. horrible!!!!!! dreadfull!!!!!
the whole literature of tolkien is based on private imagination. let it be.

Last edited by ESTEL (Wed, Sep1 2010 7:32am)

Thingol · Wed, Sep1 2010 7:42am

...that's the point of all fantasy genres.... private imagination and mystic thoughts... and yes let it be... this is the point of freedom....

Gavin · Wed, Sep1 2010 5:45pm

*cough*

Goblins are orcs. Goblin is the Hobbit word for Orc. wink Tolkien also made a minor boo-boo with Hobgoblins. He assumed Hobgoblin meant "big" Goblin. Instead it meant something like "good goblin." Since Arneson and Gygax took every fantasy idea that wasn't nailed down, and many that were, Hobgoblin entered the fantasy universe as some sort of bigger goblin and thus it has remained since (of course, Kobold is the German word for Goblin - and the result is that now Kobold is some sort of separate non-Goblin type creature.

The world of fantasy gaming is weird that way.

shadyt · Wed, Sep1 2010 6:06pm

Chris has chosen the Variag Archer as the winner for this months Gold Fellowship.

Barliman · Wed, Sep1 2010 6:27pm

For the record, according to the Oxford English Dictionary a 'Hobgoblin' is a 'mischievous, tricksy imp or sprite ... a terifying apparition, a bogy', and has been in use since at least 1530.

And I wonder why The Man opted for the Variag?

Gavin · Wed, Sep1 2010 6:59pm

If memory serves, he went with the OED dictionary definition at first.

And then unleashed his powers of linguist-fu and went, here, hang on.

And then promptly forgot about it, because he was busy. Which is pretty much the story of the various Histories of Middle-earth books.

Thingol · Wed, Sep1 2010 8:15pm

.... who knows why he decide to vote for Variag archer, but for me this is better solution than another one orc commander or not.......

Last edited by Thingol (Wed, Sep1 2010 8:18pm)

Gavin · Wed, Sep1 2010 10:28pm

Well, maybe we can now have a miniature of this guy:

or this guy

or this guy

big_smile

Gavin

Turambar · Wed, Sep1 2010 10:55pm

As I said: there won´t be two releases. But nobody is interested in this, right!
Well, as far as I am concerned I loved that the Variag archer is been chosen. I think everybody knows so far that I am a real fan of "Easterlings".
Please don´t explain to me the difference between Easterlings and Variags!
I have suggested a mounted easterling archer- mongolian lookink like. Now we will have a Variag foot-archer.
I will wonder how "mongolian"-kind he will be. Maybe such "mongolian"-kind as the already existing Variag is.
I am really looking forward this miniature! Absolutely great!

Gavin · Thu, Sep2 2010 2:57am

I won't explain to you that a Variag is a type of Easterling, and how, in the MERP legendarium, they are related to the various other Easterling confederations such as the Sagath in various ways.

I'll also fail to explain to you how they've been typically illustrated in MERP and related media as a sort of Mongolian looking lot, with furry hats. Thus the old mounted Variag was a Mongolian looking fellow with a furry hat.

I'll further fail to point out that Variag is the Russian word for Viking and could therefore mean that the Variags of Khand are thus some sort of Northman tribe in the service of darkness.

Because I fail like that big_smile

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