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#1 Fri, Feb15 2008 10:10am

Nob
The in(n)famous Keeper
From: Bree
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 59

A Wandering Elf in need *recruiting open*

*Nob begins to fix a large pannel at the entrance of the inn with his little hammer and some used nails*

Hear Ye! Hear Ye!
Gildor Inglorion, rightly named "the Wandering Elf", is recruiting active volunteers to help him in his hard task of referencing all existing figurines from Mithril. Each volunteer will be assigned one task. (If he volunteers for more, it is up to him or her) There are three main needs of help, these are :

-getting copyright/release date info for each figurine  (it counts as one task)
-checking the redundant occurences of some particulary known characters appearing several times in all Mithril range (the current redundancy list will be posted as Annex to this announce) (it counts as one task)
-Getting a description for each figurine. Description may include : technical information related to the "history" of the figurine making/rarity/release issues AND/OR character background (absolutly required for all MERP characters) AND/OR a quote from the books related to this figurine in particular (quote in italic, source in bold)  (this counts as five tasks, as follows : One first "batch" is to check and correct/complete all the existing reference in the database from M1 to M124, then groups of 125 figurines MAXIMUM : M125-M250, M251-M375, M376-M500, and also MC-MCD, LR-LT-LO-Christmas.  that makes 5 lots and thus 5 tasks, if we have more volunteers, we can make smaller batches)

All these info are to be sent directly to his mailbox (not in private message this time) using the special writing technique used as ".DOC" . For examples regarding the description requirements, you can check the existing ones in the database and use the same model. the pre-formated sentences in bold/italic/red mentionning figurines are from MERP are to be kept in the same form for all MERP figurines not yet filled.

So, who will help the gentle Elf? Submit your candidature at the bottom of this pannel :

Volunteer for Dates?
Volunteer for Redundancy?
Volunteer for description Batch 1 (M1-124)?
Volunteer for description Batch 1 (M125-250)?
Volunteer for description Batch 1 (M251-375)?
Volunteer for description Batch 1 (M376-500)?
Volunteer for description Batch 1 (MC/MCD,LO,LR,LT,Christmas)?


You are free to choose several tasks depending on your availability, but once a person is affected to one task, no other will choose the same task (it is in order to avoid parallel working and wasting time and effort for all of you)


*Nob finishes hammering the little nails, then leaves back for inside the inn, carrying his little stool with him*

Coming master Butterbur!! Don't hit me on the head!

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#2 Fri, Feb15 2008 11:15am

Nob
The in(n)famous Keeper
From: Bree
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 59

Re: A Wandering Elf in need *recruiting open*

Appendice 1 : Current Redundancy List :
Unless some major characters are to be released by Mithril, who have not yet been released at all so far, the list of names is not to be updated, only the occurences of these names. In case You notice some major character missing from this list, please add it  at the very bottom of the list in bold. This list is not very up to date, so it will require modifications (I overlooked the MC-MCD references but could you please add them?) All modifications must be done in red..but as you can see it is quite well filled already.

Frodo&Sam : M113,M123,MB237,M287,M327,M332,MV373,MV374,MV375,MV376,M393,MB396,LR23,LO2,LO3,LO30
Galadriel : M1,M136,M205,M400,M423b,LR9,LO10,MA1,Chr1992
Elrond : M2,M143,M230,MB236,M270,M338,LR6,LR37,LO16,Chr1998
The Witch King : M3,MB279,MS299,MS458,MS495,LR11,LO29,MSA1
Barrow Wight King (or lord) : M24,M255,M256,M257,MV376,LR30
Theoden : M27,M260,MB279,MV361,MV419,LT6,LO22,Chr1997
Gandalf : M52,M125,M176,M228,MB236,MB237,M289,MS299,M350,MV360,MV361,MV362,LT1,LR1,LO1,LO20,Chr1994
Tom Bombadil : M53,MS297,MV375,LR29,LO13
Goldberry : M54,M321,MV375,LR28,LO14
Barliman Butterbur (Innkeeper of Bree) : M55,M387,LR31,Chr1999
Marcho & Blanco : M58,M353
Smaug : M62,MB346,MB422
Thranduil : M63,M234,MB236,MS462
Legolas : M64,M126,MB237,M282,LT3,LO4
Radagast : M84,LR3,Chr2003
Beorn : M85,M86,M233,MB236,MS455
Bilbo : M104,M140,M144,M227,MB236,M341,MV362,MS441,MS453,LR22,LO17
Aragorn (Strider) : M113,M124,M139,MB237,M281,MS298,M343,MS423,MS434,MS459,MS470,LT2,LR32,LO4,ME2,Chr1988
Bill Ferny : M118,LR33
Gimli : M127,MB237,M282,LT4,LO5
Boromir : M128,MB237,M283,MS434,LO9
Merry&Pippin : M129,M183,M184,M185,M196,MB237,MB279,M290,MV419,LR24,LO7,LO8
Master of Esgaroth : M131
Bard Bowman : M132,M235,MB236,Chr1996
Celeborn : M137,M211,M399,LO28
Saruman : M138,M175,MV360,LR2,LO11,LO20
Arwen : M139,MS298,M343,LR40,Chr1991
The Great Gobelin : M141,M231,MB236
Glorfindel : M142,MS495,LR36
Gollum : M144;M232,MB236,M383,MB396,LO17
Nazgul (undefined ones) : M146,M147,M329,M349,MV374,LR20,LR35,LO12
Thorin : M155,M229,MB236,M363,MS453
Thrain : M156
Dain&Azog : M164,M366
Grima Wormtongue : M181,MV331,LO23
Denethor : M195
Bergil : M196
Faramir : M200,M377,MS454,LO26,Chr2004
Ioreth : M202
Amroth : M208
Nimrodel : M209
Turin : M215,M220,M238,M244
Niennor/Niniel : M216,M245
Gwindor : M224,M240
Isildur :MS226,M272,MV359,LR7,LO18,Chr1989,Chr1993
Ghan-Buri-Ghan : M248
Eorl : MS258,MS460
Fram : MX421
Frumgar : MX456
Eomer : M262,MV419,MS470,LO21
Hama : M266, LT11
Gil-Galad : M269,MS435,LR10
Elendil : M271,MS435
Cirdan : M273,MS440,LR8
Eowyn : MB279,M316,MV420,MS454,LO19,Chr2000
Gwaihir : M301
Elrohir : M339,LR39
Farmer Maggot : M348,LR26
Fatty Bolger : M351,LR27
Lobelia&Lotho : M352
Balin : M364,MS453
Gloïn : M365,MS453
Gildor Inglorion : MV373,LR25,LO25
Imrahil : MV420,Chr2002
Bill the Poney : M393,LR34
Elladan : LR38

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#3 Fri, Feb15 2008 3:16pm

Wendy
Slowest Painter Ever
From: Michigan, USA
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 365
Website

Re: A Wandering Elf in need *recruiting open*

I'll head the Department of Redundant Occurences Department.  lol  (Yeah, bad joke...)

I'll volunteer for description Batch 1 (MC/MCD,LO,LR,LT,Christmas), but I have to make sure I can save files as .docs.  I might need a little help if there are any MERP figs.

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#4 Tue, Feb19 2008 8:34pm

Theobald
Wisest of Ents
From: the Osning in Germany
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 5724
Website

Re: A Wandering Elf in need *recruiting open*

Well, Nob, it will need some time to check your list ... I'll have a closer look (as I remember there's someone keeping up such a list - but it's not me, I just save some of those things) .. here it is.... I found it ...
I think first of all there could be an alphabetical order in it ... don't you think so?
So starting with:

Adunaphel   LR13
Akhorahil   LR14
etc.
....
Aragorn   113,124,139,281,343,423,434,LR32,LT2,ME2,LO4
etc.
....

Is it that you asked for?

Your above list is absolutely incomplete. Sorry to say that.
So I could provide a more complete list in alphabetical order (which makes it easier for people looking for certain releases ... so to say) though it has not been revised for about a year or so ... I might ask good old Axel to update that. Otherwise I would have to type that myself as there's only a hardcopy at my desk ... anyway ... I could provide that, of course.
Let me know.

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#5 Tue, Feb19 2008 9:38pm

Gildor Inglorion
Wandering Elf
From: Montpellier, France
Registered: Fri, Jan25 2008
Posts: 4098
Website

Re: A Wandering Elf in need *recruiting open*

well if it is incomplete please feel free to do so smile but I only put in this list : personnalities, and those who have more than one occurence (exception for some ones which I forgot to remove from the list)

a character appears in this list only if there is at least two figurines for this character in the whole ranges.

Puting it in alphabetical order yes that's my plan too...

It is a workign document only. it will be used to fill the "others" field in the reference sheets of the database, to switch from one occurence of a character to another in a simple click.


"Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill." (Gildor Inglorion, LOTR1)

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#6 Mon, Mar3 2008 3:27pm

Gildor Inglorion
Wandering Elf
From: Montpellier, France
Registered: Fri, Jan25 2008
Posts: 4098
Website

Re: A Wandering Elf in need *recruiting open*

well it seems not a lot of people are volunteering sad

Still I can't do all the job alone I feel frankly overwhelmed... I need help... sad

At the moment, I desperatly need help for description for backgrounds of all non-canon mithril personnalities , that were created in the MERP universe. I need background info on Tolwen the healer, and others... I have the info for all the nazgul, and the orcs of mount gundabad (as I managed to get hold on this info before MMP disappears) but I still need help for Fangorn forest MERP characters and others ....

anyway thanks for your time if you can lend me any of it...


"Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill." (Gildor Inglorion, LOTR1)

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#7 Tue, Mar4 2008 7:26pm

Theobald
Wisest of Ents
From: the Osning in Germany
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 5724
Website

Re: A Wandering Elf in need *recruiting open*

I hope you know I try to help, Gildor. At the moment my desk is piled up with that much work I have to do because of my job ... alas.
I didn't even find the time last week to take the pics of the MwSaruman's Army.
I cannot help you with those descriptions of the old MERP figures at all.
I can feel how much you're overwhelmed with work to do for this site ... but let me know you that I'll try to do what I can, whenever there's some time I can spend ... so next will be the list we last talked about (I still have to print with two fingers) .... let's see if that's ok for a "working document" as you called it ...

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#8 Tue, Mar4 2008 8:15pm

Theobald
Wisest of Ents
From: the Osning in Germany
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 5724
Website

Re: A Wandering Elf in need *recruiting open*

The list is from Nov 2005 by Axel Schudak ... I just saved the hard-copy, so I'm reprinting:

Adunaphel   LR13
Akhorahil    LR14
Allater        LR4
Amroth       208
Anarion       274
Anborn       383
Aragorn     113,124,139,281,343,423,434,LR32,LT2,ME2,LO4
Argeleb      354
Arhendrhiril   64
Arwen        139,343,LR40,CH1
Artus         CH 95
Azog         164
Balin         343,MS453
Balrog      300
Bard         132,235,CH96
Barliman   387,LR31,CH99
Beleg        221
Beorn       85,86,233
Beregond  CH02
Bergil       196
Beruthiel   MS438
Bilbo        62,104,140,144,227,341,362,MS441,MS453,LR22,LO17
Bill Ferny  118, LR33
Bill the Pony   393,LR34
Blancho     58b,353
Boromir   128,283,434,LO9
Brandir    243
Brodda   241
Burzash  MX436
Celeborn   137,211,399,LO28
Celebrimbor    225
Cirdan    273,MS440,LR8
Cirion   258
Dain    164,366
Damrod    380
Deagol    83
Denethor   195
Dernhelm  -> Eowyn
Dori        140
Dwalin  MS453
Dwaw   LR15
Elendil   271,435
Elladan   LR38
Elrohir    339,LR39
Elrond   1,143,226,230,270,338,LR6,LR37,CH98,LO16
Eomer   262,419,LO21
Eorl       258
Eowyn   279,316,LO19  (+CH)
Erkenbrand   LT7
(?) Fangorn  185
Faramir     200,377,LO26,CH04
Fatty Bolger   LR27
Fatty Lumpkin   LR29
Fimbrethil          188
Findulas              240
Forlong the old    424
Fram                  MX421
Freddy Bolgar     351
Frodo              113,123,287,327,332,373,374,375,376,LR23,LO2,LO30
Gaffer          LR27
Galadriel         2,136,205,400,LR9,MA1,LO10
Gallion         66
Gamling        LT5
Gandalf         52,125,176,228,289,299,350,360,361,362,LR1,LT1,CH94,LO1,LO20
                    * not complete: MS 290 not considered
Ghan-Buri-Ghan           248
Gil-Galad         269,435,LR10
Gildor Inglorion   373,LR25,LO25

hmmm ... this is where I want to stop for today. Of course I can type the rest of the list ... but Gildor, is it of any use for you? ... you mind that it has not been updated since Nov. 05.
I just want to let me know ... of course I'm aware that this simply is a working sheet ... somehow I don't know how to help you withyour brilliant work for the new MMP ... so tell me please, if I should type the rest of the alphabetical order from 05 ... I'd like to help wherever I can ...

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#9 Tue, Mar4 2008 11:52pm

Gildor Inglorion
Wandering Elf
From: Montpellier, France
Registered: Fri, Jan25 2008
Posts: 4098
Website

Re: A Wandering Elf in need *recruiting open*

you will notice my dear master ent, that if you remove all the "single appearence" references from your list , my own list was quite complete smile

As I said, I only need "cross references", not all personnalities, but only those with at least two occurences smile
Indeed... any figurine that could be released in the future could generate a new "entry" in this list for characters who were only casted once before.... For example, what if Palando or Alatar were to be released in the M series....they would have double entry with the LR series smile

too bad we don't have more Palando and Alatar... but doing that NOW could generate a big issue and problem with TE...  At the time of LR releases , istari names and nazgul ICE names were not a problem... It may be, now

(NB : Alatar and Palando are not inventions from ICE but true names of the blue wizards, as mentionned in Unfinished Tales Appendices, and UT is not covered by Tolkien Enterprise...)


"Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill." (Gildor Inglorion, LOTR1)

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#10 Wed, Mar5 2008 2:56pm

Theobald
Wisest of Ents
From: the Osning in Germany
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 5724
Website

Re: A Wandering Elf in need *recruiting open*

sorry for taking your time reading my list ... I really should have noticed ... just wanted to help ...

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#11 Fri, Mar28 2008 12:07am

Wendy
Slowest Painter Ever
From: Michigan, USA
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 365
Website

Re: A Wandering Elf in need *recruiting open*

Appendice 1 : Current Redundancy List :
Unless some major characters are to be released by Mithril, who have not yet been released at all so far, the list of names is not to be updated, only the occurences of these names. In case You notice some major character missing from this list, please add it  at the very bottom of the list in bold. This list is not very up to date, so it will require modifications (I overlooked the MC-MCD references but could you please add them?) All modifications must be done in red..but as you can see it is quite well filled already.

Frodo&Sam : M113,M123,MB237,M287,M327,M332,MV373,MV374,MV375,MV376,M393,MB396,LR23,LO2,LO3,LO30, MC10, MC35, MCD2
Galadriel : M1,M136,M205,M400,M423b,LR9,LO10,MA1,Chr1992, MC10, MC16, MCD8
Elrond : M2,M143,M230,MB236,M270,M338,LR6,LR37,LO16,Chr1998, MC4, MCD1
The Witch King : M3,MB279,MS299,MS458,MS495,LR11,LO29,MSA1
Barrow Wight King (or lord) : M24,M255,M256,M257,MV376,LR30, MC28, MCD10
Theoden : M27,M260,MB279,MV361,MV419,LT6,LO22,Chr1997, MC22
Gandalf : M52,M125,M176,M228,MB236,MB237,M289,MS299,M350,MV360,MV361,MV362,LT1,LR1,LO1,LO20,Chr1994,MC2 , MC11, MCD1, MCD6
Tom Bombadil : M53,MS297,MV375,LR29,LO13
Goldberry : M54,M321,MV375,LR28,LO14, MC34
Barliman Butterbur (Innkeeper of Bree) : M55,M387,LR31,Chr1999
Marcho & Blanco : M58,M353
Smaug : M62,MB346,MB422
Thranduil : M63,M234,MB236,MS462, MC8, MCD5
Legolas : M64,M126,MB237,M282,LT3,LO4, MC14
Radagast : M84,LR3,Chr2003
Beorn : M85,M86,M233,MB236,MS455, MC7
Bilbo : M104,M140,M144,M227,MB236,M341,MV362,MS441,MS453,LR22,LO17, MC1, MC37, MCD3, MCD4
Aragorn (Strider) : M113,M124,M139,MB237,M281,MS298,M343,MS423,MS434,MS459,MS470,LT2,LR32,LO4,ME2,Chr1988, MC12, MCD7
Bill Ferny : M118,LR33
Gimli : M127,MB237,M282,LT4,LO5, MC14
Boromir : M128,MB237,M283,MS434,LO9, MC13, MCD7
Merry&Pippin : M129,M183,M184,M185,M196,MB237,MB279,M290,MV419,LR24,LO7,LO8, MC15, MC1, MCD2
Master of Esgaroth : M131
Bard Bowman : M132,M235,MB236,Chr1996, MC9, MCD5
Celeborn : M137,M211,M399,LO28
Saruman : M138,M175,MV360,LR2,LO11,LO20, MC17, MCD6, MCD9
Arwen : M139,MS298,M343,LR40,Chr1991
The Great Goblin : M141,M231,MB236, MC5, MCD11
Glorfindel : M142,MS495,LR36, MC6
Gollum : M144;M232,MB236,M383,MB396,LO17, MC1, MC40, MCD3
Nazgul (undefined ones) : M146,M147,M329,M349,MV374,LR20,LR35,LO12, MC25, MC26, MCD10
Thorin : M155,M229,MB236,M363,MS453, MC3, MC36, MCD3
Thrain : M156
Dain&Azog : M164,M366
Grima Wormtongue : M181,MV331,LO23, MC18, MCD9
Denethor : M195, MC20
Bergil : M196
Faramir : M200,M377,MS454,LO26,Chr2004, MC39
Ioreth : M202
Amroth : M208
Nimrodel : M209
Turin : M215,M220,M238,M244
Niennor/Niniel : M216,M245
Gwindor : M224,M240
Isildur :MS226,M272,MV359,LR7,LO18,Chr1989,Chr1993
Ghan-Buri-Ghan : M248
Eorl : MS258,MS460
Fram : MX421
Frumgar : MX456
Eomer : M262,MV419,MS470,LO21, MC23
Hama : M266, LT11
Gil-Galad : M269,MS435,LR10
Elendil : M271,MS435
Cirdan : M273,MS440,LR8
Eowyn : MB279,M316,MV420,MS454,LO19,Chr2000
Gwaihir : M301
Elrohir : M339,LR39
Farmer Maggot : M348,LR26
Fatty Bolger : M351,LR27
Lobelia&Lotho : M352
Balin : M364,MS453, MC38
Gloïn : M365,MS453
Gildor Inglorion : MV373,LR25,LO25
Imrahil : MV420,Chr2002
Bill the Poney : M393,LR34
Elladan : LR38
Treebeard: M185, MC19
Mouth of Sauron: M145, MC24

I think I'm done.  Let me know if there are any errors.

Last edited by Wendy (Fri, Mar28 2008 7:13pm)

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#12 Sun, Mar29 2009 12:53pm

Theobald
Wisest of Ents
From: the Osning in Germany
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 5724
Website

Re: A Wandering Elf in need *recruiting open*

As for the Blue Wizards (LR4,LR5):
Can we tell who is who?

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#13 Sun, Mar29 2009 3:58pm

Gildor Inglorion
Wandering Elf
From: Montpellier, France
Registered: Fri, Jan25 2008
Posts: 4098
Website

Re: A Wandering Elf in need *recruiting open*

Since the books say they both went to the east... it is difficult to know who's the one who went "south"... Alatar is supposed to be a hunter, and Palando some kind of a seer.
From the pictures I got from MERP and Angus McBride I'd say that Palando is LR4 and Alatar is LR5 as said in my database.


"Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill." (Gildor Inglorion, LOTR1)

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#14 Sun, Mar29 2009 5:06pm

Theobald
Wisest of Ents
From: the Osning in Germany
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 5724
Website

Re: A Wandering Elf in need *recruiting open*

Thank you, I think this can be right. As for the LR figures by Chris it makes sense. Palando (LR4) has more of a preacher's pose than Alatar, whose pose is more similar to the LR3 (Radagast).
As you seem to be around filing the LR-ranges, Gildor, I witnessed a mistake some weeks ago.
Listing up the parts of the LR Nazgûl-range you will have to consider that the cloak of some of the figures were casted in two pieces each. So your entry about the parts of the figures is not quite correct. Sorry, I just want to help and can prove what I just said by providing the assembly-instruction for those figures.

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#15 Mon, Mar30 2009 11:35am

Gildor Inglorion
Wandering Elf
From: Montpellier, France
Registered: Fri, Jan25 2008
Posts: 4098
Website

Re: A Wandering Elf in need *recruiting open*

that's most possible indeed... actually the problem comes from the fact I had assembled and painted these figurines quite some weeks before filling the info on the database... and the assembling was a bit "too seemless" so I could not retrace all the parts... Please if you can give me the info on the mistakes for the LR11-20 range I would be most grateful


"Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill." (Gildor Inglorion, LOTR1)

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#16 Mon, Mar30 2009 3:49pm

Theobald
Wisest of Ents
From: the Osning in Germany
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 5724
Website

Re: A Wandering Elf in need *recruiting open*

It's the same with me, I also already assembled and painted those figures many years ago, but I'm sure to remember that the cloaks of the LR12 and LR14 consist of two parts. I'm not that sure about the cloak of the LR18 though. In case I can find out I will let you know.

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#17 Mon, Mar30 2009 6:50pm

Turambar
Archer of Mirkwood
From: Germany
Registered: Sun, Apr27 2008
Posts: 2724

Re: A Wandering Elf in need *recruiting open*

Master Theobald, I can say that you are right concerning the two parts of Akhorahil´ s cloak, because that miniature is right in front of me !
The same must be said concerning the LR 18- Ren the Unclean. Definately ! Because that one is also in front of me. smile
Unfortunately I can not say anything concerning the LR 12. Maybe you can conclude the same: the LR 16 has got also two cloak-parts !

Last edited by rita.de (Mon, Mar30 2009 6:51pm)


Maybe the magic was the most powerful force in the world. But that was long ago.
The dragons are gone, the giants are dead and the children of the woods are forgotten.

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#18 Tue, Mar31 2009 12:24pm

Gildor Inglorion
Wandering Elf
From: Montpellier, France
Registered: Fri, Jan25 2008
Posts: 4098
Website

Re: A Wandering Elf in need *recruiting open*

I just rechecked my database and I found a mistake for LR12 only.
I had already written cape parts(x2) for LR14 and LR18 and counted both parts in the total... as for LR12 I just made the correction.


"Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill." (Gildor Inglorion, LOTR1)

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#19 Tue, Mar31 2009 10:15pm

Turambar
Archer of Mirkwood
From: Germany
Registered: Sun, Apr27 2008
Posts: 2724

Re: A Wandering Elf in need *recruiting open*

Hey Gildor, I have found original pics from our favourite company concerning those Nazgul.
I have noticed, that some pics are missing. Are you interested in, or do you have them already.
Where is your child? Not yet on this earth ??!


Maybe the magic was the most powerful force in the world. But that was long ago.
The dragons are gone, the giants are dead and the children of the woods are forgotten.

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#20 Wed, Apr1 2009 6:14am

Gildor Inglorion
Wandering Elf
From: Montpellier, France
Registered: Fri, Jan25 2008
Posts: 4098
Website

Re: A Wandering Elf in need *recruiting open*

Hi rita smile well any pic would be welcome I may have them but I don't know until I've seen them smile you can email them if you want...

Little Raphaël is scheduled for the end of July smile


"Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill." (Gildor Inglorion, LOTR1)

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