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#1676 Mon, May18 2009 7:24pm

OriginalAragorn
Strider
From: California
Registered: Fri, Apr3 2009
Posts: 257

Re: The Taproom

Thanks Gavin, the pipeweed must be getting to my head.  You mean I can't rely upon Games Workshop or Peter Jackson for my Middle Earth mythos??  ;-) 

Seriously, I haven't read FOTR for a year or two, and I was a bit rusty.  So I'm glad to get re-educated on this topic.

So when Mithril puts out a large, hulking figure such as #150 and calls it a Mordor Uruk, that seems to contradict the barely-man-size description used by Tolkien.

Anyway, I still get confused by the Orc/Goblin/Uruk/HalfOrc mix.  I also still get confused the wolf/warg/warg rider/wolf rider mix.

:-)


And here we find you feasting and idling - and smoking! Smoking! Where did you come by the weed, you villains? - Gimli

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#1677 Mon, May18 2009 8:19pm

Kenakko
Dude of Westernesse
From: California
Registered: Fri, Feb8 2008
Posts: 171

Re: The Taproom

I think Gavin is right about the half-orc interpretation.  You can see others debating this.  It is supported by Treebeard's comments in the books.  To me, the Mithril/Tubb interpretation is the best and that is why I'm happy to see more half orcs.  I've always held that movies and books should be considered separately as different artistic mediums.  Mithril have always been more true to Tolkien in my opinion.  Further, I see Goblins=orcs and wargs=large, enchanted, evil wolves.  Again, going with mithril interpretations here, these renditions are better than those of other companies

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#1678 Mon, May18 2009 8:50pm

Gavin
Skilled Artisan
From: Canada
Registered: Wed, Jan30 2008
Posts: 936

Re: The Taproom

Wolf - member of the canis-canis species.
Wolf (a) - Aka Wild Wolf, White Wolf, something else - Wolves that seem to be under the power of Sauron in some form. Largely led by
Warg - demon (fallen maia) spirit inhabiting a large wolf form. Disappear when you shoot them. From the ancient Germanic word vargr, representing an evil wolf spirit or werewolf.
Wolf (b) a larger version of those not-entirely normal wolves which are big enough and trained enough to carry an orc on its back.

heh.

Mithril's orcs are, I think, a little big. The fact that they are all hulking and crouching seems to make sense. In a way, I think they improve somewhat on Tolkien's vision. Mithril's orcs would make me pay attention, if they were horde-ing it towards my village. Any smaller and I might start slagging them off "what are you going to do? Bite my knee?"

big_smile

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#1679 Tue, May19 2009 8:53am

Gildor Inglorion
Wandering Elf
From: Montpellier, France
Registered: Fri, Jan25 2008
Posts: 4098
Website

Re: The Taproom

the last bred of Uruk-Hai  and Olog-Hai have precisely this particularity to be able to walk in daylight actually... that's the difference between the Morgul Orcs or what I call Hithaeglir Orcs as opposed to the "Uruk hai" elite orcs from Mordor...

Indeed the movie made us believe that uruk-hai were a creation of saruman while it is actually a creation of Sauron... in Mordor... but their ability to walk in daylight and their stature, as shown in the movie remains what they should be....daylight creatures... that is for certain (canon from the books smile )


As for Half-orcs, it is a pale experiment from Saruman to cross men and orcs to have hybrid races of lesser power than those of Sauron...

Though there were Uruk-hai in Saruman's forces there were not a lot and most of his army were half-orcs actually...


"Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill." (Gildor Inglorion, LOTR1)

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#1680 Tue, May19 2009 11:48am

Turambar
Archer of Mirkwood
From: Germany
Registered: Sun, Apr27 2008
Posts: 2724

Re: The Taproom

o.k., everything is been said about orcs, probably. But there is a little thing I would like to correct, master Gildor.
" . . . the Morgul Orcs or what I call Hithaeglir Orcs . . ." you said before. The Hithaeglir orcs are not Morgul orcs.
They are the orcs of the Misty Mountains.
After the fall of Angmar orcs conquered the old dwarven kingdom of Gundabag and go southway the Misty Mountains
until they came to the kingdom of Moria which they conquered as well.


Maybe the magic was the most powerful force in the world. But that was long ago.
The dragons are gone, the giants are dead and the children of the woods are forgotten.

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#1681 Tue, May19 2009 1:48pm

Gildor Inglorion
Wandering Elf
From: Montpellier, France
Registered: Fri, Jan25 2008
Posts: 4098
Website

Re: The Taproom

yes yes christoph... the "or" I used in my sentence should have been an "and"  I did not mean that morgul orcs are hithaeglir orcs i just meant "both of them" but they have nothing in common...

Hithaeglir orcs are those from Mount Gram, Gundabad, or Moria... and usually called "goblins" by Hobbits from their history with the war of greenfields if I remember well (Golfimbul etc.)


"Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill." (Gildor Inglorion, LOTR1)

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#1682 Tue, May19 2009 2:05pm

Kenakko
Dude of Westernesse
From: California
Registered: Fri, Feb8 2008
Posts: 171

Re: The Taproom

I think one of the best essays about the Orcs in Tolkien I read was called The Unnatural History Of Tolkien's Orcs. Unfortunately I saved only a pdf but not the link.  One should be able to find this... The matter of Saruman imitations of Uruk hai from Modor is only mentioned in passing, but seems to be supported.  I personally like the idea of Saruman's efforts being more 'man-like' in shape and stature with varied degrees of 'orc-ness' present and thus different from Sauron's efforts. But like the origin of orcs themselves, people will interpret things differently because Tolkien was never so explicit.

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#1683 Tue, May19 2009 10:35pm

Turambar
Archer of Mirkwood
From: Germany
Registered: Sun, Apr27 2008
Posts: 2724

Re: The Taproom

Folks, there are other people who are more crazy than those who paint 32mm miniatures for putting them in a diorama which they build also !
Look here:  http://www.matchstickmarvels.com/Comingin2009.htm

Last edited by rita.de (Tue, May19 2009 10:35pm)


Maybe the magic was the most powerful force in the world. But that was long ago.
The dragons are gone, the giants are dead and the children of the woods are forgotten.

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#1684 Wed, May20 2009 1:07am

hsf62
Master Caster
From: Australia
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 2930

Re: The Taproom

WOW!!!!!


Where there is a will there is a way, just as there are no problems, only solutions! Guess it depends on ones own perspective of the matter at that time big_smile

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#1685 Wed, May20 2009 7:36am

erchamion
Adventurer
From: Granada, Spain
Registered: Tue, Apr1 2008
Posts: 825

Re: The Taproom

Wonderful! Definitely some people have much spare time ......smile


¡Fuera, viejo Tumulario! ¡Desaparece a la luz! ¡Encógete como la niebla fría, llora como el viento en las tierra estériles, más allá de los montes! ¡No regreses aquí! ¡Deja vacío el túmulo! Perdido y olvidado, más sombrío que la sombra, quédate donde las puertas están cerradas para siempre, hasta los tiempos de un mundo mejor. Tom Bombadil LOTR1

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#1686 Wed, May20 2009 12:27pm

Gildor Inglorion
Wandering Elf
From: Montpellier, France
Registered: Fri, Jan25 2008
Posts: 4098
Website

Re: The Taproom

and all of this with matchsticks?? damn!!


"Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill." (Gildor Inglorion, LOTR1)

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#1687 Wed, May20 2009 5:13pm

Turambar
Archer of Mirkwood
From: Germany
Registered: Sun, Apr27 2008
Posts: 2724

Re: The Taproom

. . . right decision to stop smoking . . .


Maybe the magic was the most powerful force in the world. But that was long ago.
The dragons are gone, the giants are dead and the children of the woods are forgotten.

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#1688 Wed, May20 2009 5:34pm

twrich
The Man in the Dark
From: Minneapolis, MN USA
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 752

Re: The Taproom

Thanks rita, that's amazing.


"All that is gold does not glitter, not all those that wander are lost." (Strider, The Fellowship of the Ring)

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#1689 Thu, May21 2009 9:57pm

Theobald
Wisest of Ents
From: the Osning in Germany
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 5724
Website

Re: The Taproom

Rhuoommm ... I'm also impressed,... huom ... I think it's not only about having too much spare time, Master Erchamion ... rhuoommmhom ... must be some interest in it, too, methinks ... hom

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#1690 Thu, May21 2009 10:16pm

Theobald
Wisest of Ents
From: the Osning in Germany
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 5724
Website

Re: The Taproom

HUOooommmm ... hommm ... You're right, Master Rita.de about your comment about smoking ...
hooommm ... though I just had to re-read the first chapter of 'The Hobbit' again ... rhuooom ....
alas, cutting off heads of matchsticks do just kill their purpose ... huoommm ... as to light a pipe.
Rhuoommmhom ... The Man in the Dark knows about it ,I'm sure... hommmm ... so give him a light and me a bowl of You-know-what ... alas, where's Knob???? ... d****d ....

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#1691 Fri, May22 2009 11:53am

Gildor Inglorion
Wandering Elf
From: Montpellier, France
Registered: Fri, Jan25 2008
Posts: 4098
Website

Re: The Taproom

Really I don't know what to think about this month 2nd vote...

It's really the first time three "common" suggestions reach the 2nd turn without any named people (not to mention only 37 people did vote out of more than 100 GF members I think?)

I know this has already been discussed but I keep wondering something... Do people suggest figurines to satisfy their personnal desires "only" or do they suggest them also thinking about the originality and exclusivity one figurine could provide to Mithril as a whole...

I can easily understand someone's desire to see a half-orc officer or female assassin but I can't manage to see how the release of such a figurine will contribute to the promotion of the Gold Fellowship "exclusivity" or "originality" of figurines seen nowhere else in the released ranges... Now maybe GF must be seen as a "community" way to have a MX for free? but really I don't see the "promotional and exclusive" aspect all MS figurines had in the past....(indeed the fact that we are not allowed to suggest vignettes does not help, I admit)

I used to suggest people to vote for anything, but to vote anyway, if they did not want to see a special suggestion win (some kind of counter-vote) but it's difficult to apply this in the case you would not really want to see any of the three suggestions winning (don't misunderstand my point of view here, I will always enjoy Chris sculpture and figurines and I have nothing against individuals and I am happy for them if they win, but for Mithril in general, I still feel these are not Special figurines and should thus not carry the prefix MS which means Mithril Special....)


"Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill." (Gildor Inglorion, LOTR1)

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#1692 Fri, May22 2009 1:58pm

Theobald
Wisest of Ents
From: the Osning in Germany
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 5724
Website

Re: The Taproom

Huoommmmrhuooommm ... I can well understand all your anger about these matters ... huom ... of course here I only can try to explain my part in that ... rhuoommm ... as I never suggested anything in the first years of the GF I once decided to give in to Master Barliman's appeal to suggest something .... rhuooommm ... so I did suggest Beruthiel's husband ... huom... to have a nice addition to the vignette ... hooommm ... I even did it twice ... hom ... then, one day .... hummm ... some time ago, meseems, I sat here laughing when I opened that envelope including a prince ... rhuomm ... Môrlass I think he's called ... huooommm ... so, still laughing I had the idea of suggesting a female orc ... rhuoommm ... just for fun .... ahem .. rhuoomm ... with that I did not want to cause any trouble, not even those discussions that followed ... hom.
Huoommm ... anyway, Master Gildor, sorry if I'd done anything wrong .... huoommm ... but let me tell you that you will see more names this year ... rhuoomm ... names being canon, as you like to call it ... rhuoommm ... some of them have never been mentioned here ... huooommm ... as far as I can remember ... hom ... well, yes, last night I also had another idea for a new suggestion ... rhuoommm ...
so calm down, Master Gildor, from now on I will strictly keep to the idea of having the suggestions for the MS-series kept to "named people", as you called it ... rhuoommm ...
Master Gildor, please forgive me joking with/about that female orc, I hope you can ... rhuoomm ... hom ... smile

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#1693 Fri, May22 2009 2:34pm

Gildor Inglorion
Wandering Elf
From: Montpellier, France
Registered: Fri, Jan25 2008
Posts: 4098
Website

Re: The Taproom

but I am not angry at all master tree smile it is not anger that I feel but perplexity... I just wonder what is the objective of the gold fellowship at the time being in a promotional way for Mithril
Let me give you an example :
during the first year or months of the GF...  Mithril could promote its GF program and also its trademark as a whole saying :
"Hey come join the fellowship and you'll be able to get great "pieces" like the Death of Boromir, the Death of Thorin, the fighting between Celebrimbor and Anatar or between Sauron Elendil& Gil-Galad or why not the King of the Undead Army (to quote a single figurine) , all of these... never released! exclusive, found "nowhere else" and purely original!

Having half-orc commanders, female orcs, female assassins, troll drummers, captain of this or that,  it is ok for suggestions to give Mithril for "regular" and common releases... These are cool... but I really can't see the "grandeur" in these figurines that would let people think "wow, this figurines are Unique, I have to join the fellowship to get them!" like it was when Wulf of Edoras, Gandalf vs Witch-King, Oath of Cirion and Eorl were up there.... they were "wow"... and Mithril would get people to go join the fellowship to have them...

The current suggestions will please those who suggested and voted for them... who are already members.... but will it bring "promotion" to mithril to get the attention of "potential" new members?  I really wonder so... (not to say I doubt so)

so I repeat I don't feel angry at all, just perplex... about Mithril marketing and promotion methods and if the suggestions from the collectors actually help promote Mithril?


"Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill." (Gildor Inglorion, LOTR1)

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#1694 Fri, May22 2009 4:01pm

Turambar
Archer of Mirkwood
From: Germany
Registered: Sun, Apr27 2008
Posts: 2724

Re: The Taproom

Well, Gildor I am afraid there is a liitle truth in what you said in your last comment. I agree to you concerning the less uniqueness, wondering often about the fellowship-releases. Boromir blowing the great horn of Gondor:
is that a unique and special figure to spend 20 Euros inside a fellowship !? ( sorry savage 727 )- that´s the reason why I didn´t join the fellowship untill the beginning of this year, by the way.  Let me suppose most people decide the other way than I do.
Who knows Queen Beruthiel? Or Gilraen? Is that a rohan archer? I can imagine that more common characters are more interesting for more common fellowship-recruits to give the price we all know for that ( of course brilliant sculptured ) figure.
The new fellowship starts well, with that special figures mentioned above, there were also small vignettes, there was Eorl with the most fantastic horse by The Man ever ( and NOT used in the Dol Amroth range like MX-horses ! ) but in the meantime it´s "watering" itself, meseems.
But: leave it, you can decide to by the miniature or not. There is hope, that there will be special figures in the future, still, like Tar-Minastir was !
I know I will polarize. And I won´t offend any kind fellow here . . . Don´t blame me . . .


Maybe the magic was the most powerful force in the world. But that was long ago.
The dragons are gone, the giants are dead and the children of the woods are forgotten.

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#1695 Fri, May22 2009 6:19pm

Gildor Inglorion
Wandering Elf
From: Montpellier, France
Registered: Fri, Jan25 2008
Posts: 4098
Website

Re: The Taproom

well I think the problem still comes from the fact Mithril does not release enough "regular" figurines which are not a collection of military /army figurines  and thus people submit "military" or "regular officers" among the gold fellowship.
Now indeed that depends what Mithril is looking after for their new fellowship members. if military common figurines are what people want, they'll join in to buy them and suggest others who will eventually keep winning the votes if all new members are here to have "this special" kind of figurine smile that's a vicious (or virtuous depends how you look at it) circle.
If I look back at the archives of the first GF years, there was no single suggestion that was not unique in its own way. I can't remember seeing un-named or common character suggestions or when there was one, it was this suggestion that seemed odd among all the others... I have the feeling it is the other way around now... Named ones are a minority among anonymous ones...(I use the term "named ones" by lack of a better word to mean special character with a name or special function or position)

there used to be a time when Mithril did release.... in the regular series, all kinds and types of figurines and the fellowship special one were above the rest.

If I check closely in my database there has not been such release since  "the Village of Bree" (M387 to M395). Since that time there has not been any thematic series (the MERP series was special, it did not have any theme except that it was MERP related smile and even if we count it, that makes only one such set)

Back in time.. Mithril had the habit to release series with all kinds of characters from the same theme : military, noble, townfolk  (see Isengard,  Minas Tirith, The Black Sword, Court of the Elven King...)

oh by the way Beruthiel is a curiosity I admit, but Gilraen ... it's the mother of Aragorn (quite important wink )
I wonder if the vignette of Sauron (no price consideration) would have won a single vote should we have the possibility to suggest it now...

and there is already a half-orc captain (not warband leader but officer anyway) in the Mithril range. it's M180

*sigh* I had the idea , months ago to ask for a vignette of King Elessar and Queen Arwen with baby Eldarion in their arms but when the vignette possibility disappeared, and because, after many months of suggesting it it had never won I lost all my hopes.... I would have asked it in MX would I have the money but I don't... This would have been a good gift for my child birth event... but it'll eventually have to wait until I win at lotery which will surely happen before vignettes are authorized for suggestion once again

well enough whinning smile


"Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill." (Gildor Inglorion, LOTR1)

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#1696 Fri, May22 2009 8:48pm

Theobald
Wisest of Ents
From: the Osning in Germany
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 5724
Website

Re: The Taproom

Rhruhommhuom ... I have been contemplating all these matters seriously for quite a while ... huom ... so Frumgar was released (I did support that idea) ... rhuoomm ... then there was Imrahil (I chose to have him submissioned myself, as some of you might remember)  ... rhuommm ... what else can I do ?... huom ... what else? ... rhuooommm ... I didn't know ....
but lately ... rhuoomm must have been last autumn I had an idea ... huoomm ... some weird idea, meseems ... huom ... anyway, it's on its way I think .... rhuoommm ... sure I am ...hom
it'll not displease you .... rhuoomm...
Huoommm ... but lettuce not stick to these eloquent ways around here in the Pony .... rhuomm...
as I'm going to have them wargskins brushed again ... no one cared, just trodded over them .... alas .... rhuooomm .... I'm about nailing them to the wall ... rhuoomm ... somewhere ... hom ...

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#1697 Fri, May22 2009 9:37pm

erchamion
Adventurer
From: Granada, Spain
Registered: Tue, Apr1 2008
Posts: 825

Re: The Taproom

I agree with almost everything you said while resting with a beer in hand ....roll
Don´t despair. Among all try to contribute with good ideas. Sure with time we will have excellent (and "special") figures.smile
I actually already have some new ideas of single figures (in the expectation that we can suggest "pairs" or "mounted" figures). And all ideas are named figures....wink


¡Fuera, viejo Tumulario! ¡Desaparece a la luz! ¡Encógete como la niebla fría, llora como el viento en las tierra estériles, más allá de los montes! ¡No regreses aquí! ¡Deja vacío el túmulo! Perdido y olvidado, más sombrío que la sombra, quédate donde las puertas están cerradas para siempre, hasta los tiempos de un mundo mejor. Tom Bombadil LOTR1

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#1698 Fri, May22 2009 10:40pm

Theobald
Wisest of Ents
From: the Osning in Germany
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 5724
Website

Re: The Taproom

Rhuoommm ... alas, resting with a bear in your hand ... huommm .. could become difficult for that bear ... rhuommm ... hopefully thinking it wasn't a bier ... rhuoomhom ... as for us trees language is limited ... rhuoommm ... though I understood those adjectives "excellent" and "special" .... rhuuoommm ... nice words they are .... huooommm ...

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#1699 Tue, May26 2009 4:14am

twrich
The Man in the Dark
From: Minneapolis, MN USA
Registered: Tue, Jan29 2008
Posts: 752

Re: The Taproom

Hello Gildor, I think I have a simple answer.

Now Mithril advertises that they have produced over SIX HUNDRED figures!! To be sure, this includes all lines and sizes. And it also includes many renditions of the same person. But do not be perplexed or despair. There are still several named characters who will be made for the first time, and certainly several other named characters who will be made again, just as we have another Boromir recently.

For myself, who first suggested the female assassin, it was born out of a belief that the more suggestions we have the better, and in that month there were already several named figures put forward. With the deadline looming for suggestions, I couldn't think of anyone so I threw her out there and she has hung around ever since. In the old days, when regular "M" releases were more common, as you mentioned above, we would get a variety of peoples and professions from a given area. Now it seems very concentrated on the armies. This is our reality now; the FG hasn't attracted hundreds of new customers to Mithril, but it has found us some excellent new friends. Mithril needs to make the regular releases that will sell, and we can broaden the line with our FG group. I think the female assassin, dorwinion wine merchant, even female orc are just a natural attempt to get more balance into the releases. The stories are as much about individuals (even more so) than grand armies.

But look at how we came together as a group to get the three trolls from the Hobbit. Go back to the begining and look at all of the releases in the FG and you will feel better. Very few non-canon releases made it to the winners circle. And remember, in the books we get a very small slice of Middle-earth. Even JRR Tolkien himself said the books were too short and that "other hands" would expand the story. Most would believe that in Middle-earth there were all kinds of peoples that Tolkien wasn't able to specifically mention, but that it is common sense that they would exist.

Perhaps I am ruining the "magic" of the written word. But I don't intend to. When I read the books--and I have done so cover to cover at least a dozen times--I am lost in the imagination of what Middle-earth was like, all of the peoples and places, even those just hinted at or not mentioned at all, and wish that I could have lived there, the writing is so excellent.

Last edited by twrich (Tue, May26 2009 4:53am)


"All that is gold does not glitter, not all those that wander are lost." (Strider, The Fellowship of the Ring)

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#1700 Tue, May26 2009 8:36am

ESTEL
The Lord of the Paints
Registered: Thu, Jan31 2008
Posts: 497

Re: The Taproom

Hmmm,

I will throw in some new thought in that debate of the GF:

Maybe the time has come, when character figures will be released as regular M-series and more common or no-name figures will be released as GF-figures (have a look at the last Merp-related M-figures!!).
Yes, I am a little bit frustrated too, as I would love to see some characters designed by Chris and cast in lead. We have so many characters even only from the War of the Ring of the late 3rd Age, that have not been designed.
That's the reason why I do not like some suggestions of the GF (I will not put an example in here as I do not want to offend someone).
I do not need only named characters, but more canonical ones, things mentioned by Tolkien. Yes, I like the Lossoth, Troll drummer, Ent, corsair admiral, Arnorian knight, Haradrim lord, Haradrim captain on war camel ... figures very much even not named characters. roll But where are all those named characters? mad

Why the hell are GF-members not happy about a Beruthiel but about witch kings and Boromirs?? Beruthiel is extremely special and such a nice collectable piece.

What is really frustrating is, that there are so often debates about that, but at last, the GF-members vote often for non-canonical figures or for characters like the witch king, of whom exist a dozen miniatures. Just have a look at this month's first and second round of voting !!
sad

Maybe some nice guy or girl with much influence can propose a change in rules, like 'this month only named characters'?? hmm


Well folk, I totally agree with those members, who think hard about laying out much money for figures they seem not necessary to be in their collection, even if you are a die-hard- collector..........



NAMARIE
estel

Last edited by ESTEL (Tue, May26 2009 8:39am)


"From the ashes a fire shall be woken, 
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken:
The crownless again shall be king".

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